Staub Cranial

[kcdt]

Originally Posted by CYNOSURER

Because they are teaching. They are trying to show those who wouldn't know what a mucostatic outline was how to arrive at it. the name is unimportant as in a 'rose is still a rose'.

What part of 'dumbing down' do you not understand?

As one who was taught this business by a graphically oriented and not verbally oriented technician I can appreciate the method here. Simple and straightforward.

I understand, but the purpose of a glossary is so we ALL know what the hell's being talked about. The problem with renaming the rose is it can lead to a lack of clarity, and there's already a name for it.

[JSTAUBTRAINER]

You have to remember when our group first got involved in this technology everything was in German. We went through years of effort in translating and clarifying the training manuals, marketing materials, and product information. The "conclusion line" became the "conclusion line" because it was the wording that was the most direct and literal translation.

The way in which the Staub Cranial System works is that it takes measurement from the upper and lower models. We take these measurements from bone reference points because they are constant and stable. We take these measurements and input them into a model map software. Our software produces a model map that provides and outline or fence line as where the teeth are to be placed. The system places these teeth in a statistical ideal. This statistical ideal has provided our laboratory and other labortories a 95% accurate tooth placement. Which translates into a major reduction in remakes.

In a response to an earlier post - this system will not work if we have a patient that has had major bone loss, and intreverted ridge, or some type of trauma that would remove our land marks. We use our land marks because they can be relied on as constant, if those land marks are missing this system will have a limitation.

I'm going to try to be as interactive as possible. I am a constantly traveling and working on promoting this system. I also just finally went back to school to get my Bachelors in Business Administration. I am maxed out right now, but, I do care about the opinions of this forum. A lot of the people that get on board with the Staub Cranial System read all or parts of this thread.

[kcdt]

That's a lot of clarity. I really appreciate the insights into how you got to "here". I would love to talk a little bit about when the maxillary is finally paired to the mandible. If adjustment is needed to harmonize the two is this considered reset or just an expected part of the procedure?
It seems a lot rides on how the VDO is established chairside- are you contending that the teeth arranged in the space provides enough reference that the bite is easier to capture for the clinician?
Again, thanks for taking the time to talk here. There are a lot of very experienced denture techs here that would love to understand this innovation.
Have a great Holiday!

[sensei]

Just got back my first case from the lab using this technique. It was a full upper over partial lower. The teeth were set so far into class III occlusion that I had to take them all off and create my own wax rim so I could reset chairside. There was nothing abnormal about the lower anteriors - not excessively flared or anything like that. It ended up taking me more time than if I had just contoured some wax rims in the traditional way.

This lady definitely had some bone loss but about what you would expect for someone who has been edentulous for 10 years. I understand the difficulty with serious bone loss where landmarks are no longer present, but I have watched the online videos twice and all the landmarks talked about were present in my impressions.

I may end up giving this technique another try. As a clinician I WANT it to work, but I was not impressed with my first experience.

[Denturist]

Originally Posted by billydte

Universitätsklinikum Freiburg
Abteilung Poliklinik für Zahnärztliche Prothetik
Ärztlicher Direktor: Prof. J.R. Strub

"Two maxillary alginate impressions were taken and poured with dental plaster in each of 20 completely dentulous subjects with no history of orthodontic treatment.
All teeth were removed with a plaster cutter in one of the two models made for each participant in the study.

A blind duck with a glass eye in it's ass could accurately set teeth on those models.

[sensei]

Originally Posted by Denturist

A blind duck with a glass eye in it's ass could accurately set teeth on those models.

LOL. Good point!

[kcdt]

Originally Posted by Denturist

A blind duck with a glass eye in it's ass could accurately set teeth on those models.

That's why I wanted to see some literature showing some clinical efficacy. At this point my guess is it still comes down to the ability of the technician to interpret the info.
My question: is the lab that set up the denture new to the removable market, or an established player? No need for names, I'm just curious.

[kcdt]

Originally Posted by sensei

This lady definitely had some bone loss but about what you would expect for someone who has been edentulous for 10 years. I understand the difficulty with serious bone loss where landmarks are no longer present, but I have watched the online videos twice and all the landmarks talked about were present in my impressions.
.

The problem I see with this is that the edentulous population in this country is aging rapidly, and the norm is going to trend towards advanced edentulism and all its challenges.
So the techniques most needed are the one's that deal with end stage bone loss, etc.
I'm not saying people who are younger won't be edentulated, but that will start to be the exception.
P.S. At ten years out, I'd still expect to see an ok ridge and visible anatomy.

[Brian]

Glass eye in a duck's ass.... Well articulated; I will have to put that one in the ole' memory bank..

[JSTAUBTRAINER]

Originally Posted by Denturist

A blind duck with a glass eye in it's ass could accurately set teeth on those models.

Wow.....way to turn an interesting discussion into a joke. Please explain to me what you don't see as significant about this study. Anyone could replace these teeth....you are right. But, could anyone replace them with a 95% accuracy regarding the exact tooth position, tooth height, width, and inclination, proper vertical and proper midline? Thanks to the Staub Cranial System, everyone at our lab from our office receptionist to our seasoned technicians (old guys) could do what Karl Heinz Staub was able to. And he did this all without having the original models. All he was given is sets of models with the teeth completely removed. He had no bite, bite rims, facebow, or any other references to use. If you still don’t think this is significant, I would love to send you a set of duplicated models with the teeth completely removed and see what I get in return. Hopefully what I get back doesn't look like it was done by a….how did you put it… blind duck with a glass eye in its ass. We will just have to wait and see.

[Kreyer]

What has perplexed me about the Staub Cranial technique is that it goes against prosthodontic literature and textbooks.

If dental technicians are not supposed to dictate treatment then why should a general dentist, denturist or prosthodontist prescribe the Staub technique since it was not part of their removable prosthodontic curriculum or requirement to graduate??

If there are removable prosthodontic university textbooks that teach the Staub Cranial technique please advise..


Thank you!

[kcdt]

Originally Posted by Kreyer

What has perplexed me about the Staub Cranial technique is that it goes against prosthodontic literature and textbooks.

If dental technicians are not supposed to dictate treatment then why should a general dentist, denturist or prosthodontist prescribe the Staub technique since it was not part of their removable prosthodontic curriculum or requirement to graduate??

If there are removable prosthodontic university textbooks that teach the Staub Cranial technique please advise..


Thank you!

hey Robert! Happy New Year!
I know the answer will likely come back that this is so new it hasn't yet percolated into curriculum, but I for one think you make a valid point.
I would LOVE to see some more literature on this and its efficacy.
I still have MANY questions.
For instance, say the patient BEFORE edentulism was a candidate for ortho, or didn't care for the positioning of their dentition- wouldn't setting everything into original placement mean a reset to resolve the cosmetic issues?

[Kreyer]

Hello Kenneth and Happy New Year!!

I have worked on many cases where we make the prosthesis after facial reconstruction. The patients desires are not age appropriate but facial harmony. Understanding expectations and desires are critical to esthetic success.

My main point is what schools and universities are teaching the Staub Cranial technique? Surely it has been around long enough to be part of a curriculum in a prosthodontic program..

[kcdt]

Originally Posted by Kreyer

The patients desires are not age appropriate but facial harmony. Understanding expectations and desires are critical to esthetic success.

That's straight to the point. I totally agree.

[billydte]

Staub will set the teeth back to the patients natural dentition, so if the patient wasn't happy with the postion of their natural teeth, then no they won't be happy with the Staub setup. As far as Staub and cirriculum, Jason said there was a few schools looking at the system and doing some testing.

[kcdt]

Originally Posted by billydte

Staub will set the teeth back to the patients natural dentition, so if the patient wasn't happy with the postion of their natural teeth, then no they won't be happy with the Staub setup. As far as Staub and cirriculum, Jason said there was a few schools looking at the system and doing some testing.

Thanks for that tidbit. I suspect there are no magic bullets, but plenty of ways to skin the cat.
I hope you'll keep us up on how this plays out in everyday work...

[Denturist]

Originally Posted by JSTAUBTRAINER

Wow.....way to turn an interesting discussion into a joke. Please explain to me what you don't see as significant about this study. Anyone could replace these teeth....you are right. But, could anyone replace them with a 95% accuracy regarding the exact tooth position, tooth height, width, and inclination, proper vertical and proper midline? Thanks to the Staub Cranial System, everyone at our lab from our office receptionist to our seasoned technicians (old guys) could do what Karl Heinz Staub was able to. And he did this all without having the original models. All he was given is sets of models with the teeth completely removed. He had no bite, bite rims, facebow, or any other references to use. If you still don’t think this is significant, I would love to send you a set of duplicated models with the teeth completely removed and see what I get in return. Hopefully what I get back doesn't look like it was done by a….how did you put it… blind duck with a glass eye in its ass. We will just have to wait and see.

Well evidently the staub system is paying you pretty well and you are completely enamored by it.
I simply choose to be a little more traditional and set my cases up using a wax rim and bite which gives me proper vertical and facial support.. (Proper vertical which is subjective by the way, not all patients can tolerate proper vertical ) say you have a patient who has had dentures for 30 years and now they come in wanting a replacement for the second set they have had which is 20 years old and the teeth are worn down to the baseplate.... added to that the 20 plus years of ridge resorption...... they have become so over-closed that trying to bring them back to what is considered proper vertical turns out to be a clinical nightmare... their jaws hurt, their bite is out, and they complain about stability..... So screw proper vertical.... what do you do instead?
I start with reestablishing their vertical, how is that done? it is accomplished by reuilding some occlusal surfaces so they have an unobstructed bite plane then a series of temporary treatment liners to gently and slowly reestablish their vertical to a level that gives them good facial support and efficient function. this may take 3 to 5 appointments, Oh and a side bennifit of the liners is it also conditions the tissues for the impressions for the new dentures by firming and compressing .
So now we have a patient with a reestablished VBO .... Now it may still be less than what you would consider proper, BUT it has returned facial support and has given them a comfortable jaw position and returned chewing efficiency.

Now as to your proper midline.... back to the blind duck... everybody knows the centrals straddle the incisive papilla...... does that make it aesthetically correct? lets look at everybody's buddy Ol tommy cruise.

physiologically correct midline? yup.... Do you want your denture with that midline.... OH Hell no.... So once again we go outside the "proper" and make corrections that are functional then aesthetic.

So I guess bottom line is we don't live in a perfect world and one size does not fit all, so we take each case as it comes with it's imperfections and make a personalized denture for that individual, and save how ever much it is for your course.

Better respect my blind duck or he will beat you with his white cane........ LOL

[billydte]

denturist, I don't think you fully understand the process of using Staub Cranial. When you send the dentures out for the patients second visit, you are sending a full maxillary setup in wax and a lower anterior setup with wax rims in the lower posterior. The doctor establishes the VDO at this appointment. Now if a patients bite is [b]extremely[b] collapsed, then yes they may have to pull the lower anteriors off during this appointment, but regardless your still est the vdo and getting pt approval of the MAX anteriors, which is what pt is the most concerned with.

As far as Tom cruise mid-line, come on. You can take any system in the world and your going to have issues in certain instances. Thats extreme you'll go your whole career and how many tom cruise mid-line screws up will you see?

[Denturist]

First .... I don't send my dentures out to anyone... I see the patient, take my own impressions, do my own lab work, deliver the denture to my patient, and take care of any post delivery adjustments. I guess as far as what I do and what you do is kinda apple and oranges, But still all I see is a huge advertising campaign for an overpriced system that has no real academic background.
Well have fun with your toys .... I'm outa here.

[JSTAUBTRAINER]

Originally Posted by Denturist

First .... I don't send my dentures out to anyone... I see the patient, take my own impressions, do my own lab work, deliver the denture to my patient, and take care of any post delivery adjustments. I guess as far as what I do and what you do is kinda apple and oranges, But still all I see is a huge advertising campaign for an overpriced system that has no real academic background.
Well have fun with your toys .... I'm outa here.

Thank god for Billy. He is one of the only people on this forum with hands on experience. Mr. Duck Man...I am flattered by your last post. The only individuals that advertises this system are the users of the technology (they do this on their own) and me. Makes me feel good that you think we have a HUGE marketing campaign. The truth is our company has 3 employees..lol.. Do you really think we are some huge company, trying to screw people out of their money? Get real - You are making my stomach hurt from laughing...

We are affiliated with a small lab. This lab first got involved with the Staub Cranial Technology for themselves. They were having common issues every lab deals with on a daily basis. They had so much success with it - Karl Heinz Staub(Inventor of the Staub Cranial System) invited our lab to be exclusive distributers in North America. We are not out to become wealthy - we just saw value in a unique technology and we are happy to be promoting it. It has been successful for US, why not share this knowledge with as many as possible. At this point we have invested far more into this than we have received.

As far as the system being overpriced..... I think it is underpriced. The inventor and owners of our company want to keep the price low while this technology is still in a debut status. The reason I think the system is underpriced, is because, if it is used correctly - you are going to save time and money. Let me explain; go over your cases that were rejected last month because of incorrect tooth placement. Most labs I have spoken too estimated between 19 to 27 percent. Then calculate what your "rejection rate" would have been if your tooth placement had a 96% accuracy. You do the math, you are going to be getting a speedy return on your investment, and you are going to start receiving an even higher profit than ever before. 96% is consistently possible with this system, and everyone in the lab can do it.
This system is priced according to its abilities. There are cad-cam systems that do less, and cost 50k to 1 0k more. We have the Nobel Biocare Procera Forte (which I ran). It cost us $56,000. And also, we had the pleasure of paying between 50 to 60 dollars per unit for a zirconia substructure. We found a lab that is doing zirconia for half that. We couldn't justify the cost of using our Forte, and have ceased using it. Now all it does it collects dust. That is an overpriced system.

We have a set price which includes the entire Staub Cranial System, Software, Marketing CD, Reference Guides, Accessories, Onsite training (we come to you), and free customer support, free technical support, and free marketing support for the life of the system. There are no per use fees, or reoccurring charges. Our price includes everything you will need to get started.

As far as me getting paid well...lol. I work like I should. I am flattered that you think this. You are so far off ducky. We are a start up, on a shoestring budget. This is the reality.