Staub Cranial

Brian8 · 03-06-2008, 04:05 PM

I was talking to one of my sales reps. and she mentioned a "new technique for removables" the Staub Cranial Dental System. Has anyone heard of or used it?

I checked out there website and it is all based on mathematical equations it looks good but wanted some feed back from anyone.

Brian

Denturist · 03-09-2008, 01:58 PM

I noticed they said this could all be done without a bite registration....... I personally would not accept that.
A bite registration only takes a few minutes, and saves tons of headaches later.

labdude · 03-09-2008, 02:37 PM

A bite registration for several types of appliance can save a lot of trouble in ortho as well. It's really stressful at times with some of the malocclusions in ortho.

Brian8 · 03-10-2008, 07:31 AM

Labdude,

Did you go to there website? Because on the web site it says that it is even great for ortho.

I had one of there people call me he stated that they have been using it for awhile. The benefit that I saw in it was less chair time for the doctors because of the no bite registration. The person also stated that they charge more money for them because of this and the doctors all ask for it.

Labdude the website is Staub Cranial

Brian

Denturist · 03-11-2008, 10:33 AM

Brian...... I have been in the biz for a while and I have tried my share of new and improved crap in the market, basically I have discovered there are some areas where shortcuts can be used and may work for some for a while but when you start getting cases back ror remakes and it starts eating into your profit margin you return to tried and true procedures........ a bite registration is one of them.
personally I think this staub cranial system is a result of cranial rectumitis and a marketing ploy to sell their system and equipment that will soon be gathering dust in the storage unit with the other new and improved crap. and yes I went to there website.
I'm sure it is also not only good for ortho too but will soon solve world hunger

Brian8 · 03-11-2008, 12:04 PM

Denturist,

Thank you for your incite, I agree with you.. not to name any, itreo cough.. cough.. That is part of the reason why my partners and I have not purchased it. We want to wait and see where it goes.

labdude · 03-11-2008, 01:12 PM

Yes I took a look.
I remember at one AAO meeting I was attending, years ago, a group talking about how ortho labs needed to find other employment as their new goody was going to take over.
Not everything is so obvious.
A something that requires lab and drs. office to purchase and use same equipment doesn't usually go anywhere. The Sam system from Great Lakes is still out there and being improved on, but I don't see it as widely used as it once was. I do have a Sam 2, I use it now and again for splints.
I feel safe after Williams reply, of course, saying it is most likely useable, but probably crap for most.
Last new goody I tried was a Triad for acrylic work on retainers. Thing worked great. It cost a little more for product per unit but, it was largely faster in production. That made it worth it to me. Problem was, they were brittle at the thinness required for retainers. I got every on back for remake. I sold the goody through that large dental publications that advertises things and has room in the back for most everything. It went off to New York. Good place to sell from, that rag.
Mike.

Denturist · 03-12-2008, 09:55 AM

Hello Brian,
When it comes to dentures and their fabrication techniques you just can't go wrong when you stick to the Air Force manuals procedures, after a while you will find and develop little short cuts that work for you but when something does blow up get back to the manual.
My biggest new and improved foray was getting the Eclipse denture system from Dentsply, it was going to make monomer based dentures a thing of the past........
Well I have since sold the equipment and returned to the tried and true methods..... the one thing it really did for me though was improve my setup accuracy, it didn't take but a couple of resets to clean up that act, god what a pain in the ass that was.
It did have applications that it was perfect for but complete dentures was not one of them.
I also use the IvoCap processing equipment.

Hey Mike
Thinking of that. it may have some really nice applications in your ortho work, what do you use now for the bases of some of your appliances?

labdude · 03-12-2008, 02:33 PM

Bases for my appliances??? Just like yourself, I fall back on the tried and true methods most times. I have many little goodies I have purchased to try over the years lying around in storage places in the lab. Like that 12" disc I,m trying to sell. That goody is quite useful however, if you don't already have one, they last forever.(practically)
I did purchase many books over the years on ortho appliances. These were helpful. My knowledge of what I do was forced on me.(sort of)
I used to do nothing but Study Models. Then one Dr. calls and insists I do his appliances. I'm thinking this will cut into my surfing time etc. He starts sending work anyway. I have no pliers, wires, acrylic, compressor, etc. I call him about it, he says "Get some".
So I get stuff Sears and this used dental supply in Long Beach called Adium, if I remember correctly. Anyway minimal stuff.
Now I haven't done a study model in maybe 18 years or so.
I did take a couple of courses at Great Lakes as well.
Thing that has been the best for me learning is to be able to have a new appliance type in my hand, and memorize it. This is one of the biggest pay offs I got from investing time and money in Ortho conventions as an exhibitor. You get the opportunity to cruise around and have a look at the new stuff. There is plenty of new stuff, lots of it actually. Most of it is crap. New ideas on old appliances type stuff. Clips on a Herbst was one, instead of screws to hold them together. Lots of people pooping clips for a while. Best change for the Herbst was to hex head screws from standard flat head.
I could go on for hours.
The techniques I use I have changed over the years for faster production and no quality loss. I am always open to new ideas and techniques, seems most of them are crap, but there si sometimes a tid bit in there that is good. Can't stop looking and improving.
Mike.

Denturist · 03-12-2008, 03:33 PM

are you using heat or cold cure acrylics now for your ortho appliances?
I was thinking that Eclipse would work well in quite a bit of your ortho applications....
I have a colleague in springfield that uses Eclipse, in fact she bought all my old Eclipse equipment. I could get a sample from her and show the stuff to you when we are over that way in April.

labdude · 03-12-2008, 04:57 PM

Well...cold cure I guess. "Salt and Pepper method of lay up, then into a heated pressure pot.
Eclipse something like the Triad stuff??? Light cure material?? Is it still strong and flexible when it is about 2 mm thick??

Denturist · 03-12-2008, 10:20 PM

Yeah.... it's a light cure material but far better than triad......
I used it only for flippers, some partials, and base plates before I finally got rid of it.... but for those apps it as great.

labdude · 03-13-2008, 01:46 PM

Looked it up in the Zahn "telephone book sized" catalogue. It's only one color!! I use 84 colors.
Mike.

Denturist · 03-13-2008, 02:34 PM

no... it comes in clear, light pink, medium pink, dark pink, and a dark shade......
granted not as much coice as you have but I was thinking of the clear prmarily.

labdude · 03-13-2008, 04:45 PM

Well o.k. 4 or 5 colors. I remember the days when I made appliances only in clear pink and clear. Simpler times.

sensei · 10-04-2009, 09:26 PM

I was really interested in this as well. Turns out there is a $150 per case analysis fee to use the software. OUCH!

CloudPeakDL · 10-05-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sensei

I was really interested in this as well. Turns out there is a $150 per case analysis fee to use the software. OUCH!

I saw that; how's that for an increase in fees? That will send a larger group of dentist to China if I jack my fee 150 per. I don't see how you can set up an immediate using this or adjust for all the little nuances of dentures. Might as well start using those teeth that are attached in a half circle I use to see about 20 years ago.

kcdt · 10-05-2009, 03:44 PM

I've said this elsewhere, so I'll say it here.
1. Somehow I can't see forking over ten grand to find out what I can already do- create parameters for denture tooth arrangement- a WHOLE lot cheaper.
2. This program was created by a german tech as his phd disertation for MDT. Phd theories are a dime a dozen and getting the degree does not equal relevance of the theory.
3.Until I see some evidence based studies that demonstrate this as vastly superior to the methods that already exist, it's just another name brand shingle for labs to hang out and hope for business.
The real winners as I see it so far are the ones selling it to us. The rest is open to debate.
The thing I don't like about the system is that the sellers are VERY closed mouth about the rubber meets the road details unless you fork over several grand in tuition to get basic questions answered. I find that very suspicious.

CYNOSURER · 10-05-2009, 06:46 PM

I have to agree with you, Ken.

When someone told me there was no way the system could work I had to laugh. I can easily see how it works. They've simply got a computer doing what we have been doing in our heads all along. The landmarks are there the averages are there. It's just a matter of correlating it all in your head or a computer. I think the sad thing with this system is it falls into the "set ups for idiots" concept. Soon people who have no concept of what they are doing will be able to do it.

Unfortunately, it is a vastly superior method for those who don't know what they are doing...and there are a lot of them out there.

D-Labtek · 10-06-2009, 06:00 PM

Its funny because I was just at the Alberta (Canada) Denturist Assoc. meeting and actually met Karl Staub. He was putting on a demonstration for the Denturists and I found it to be intriguing at the least. I work for a large dental lab in the denture dept and could see how the technique could save time and money. The biggest thing is using the land marks to determine tooth position in the maxilla and anterior tooth position in the mandible. Bite blocks are placed in the lower posterior areas so a check bite can be taken at the try in. A Denturist who I used to work for uses this technique on all his patients.
Thanks Keith

03-06-2008, 04:05 PM	#1 (permalink)
Brian8 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Fremont, Ohio Posts: 83 Rep Power: 3	Staub Cranial I was talking to one of my sales reps. and she mentioned a "new technique for removables" the Staub Cranial Dental System. Has anyone heard of or used it? I checked out there website and it is all based on mathematical equations it looks good but wanted some feed back from anyone. Brian

03-12-2008, 09:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
Denturist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 311 Rep Power: 3	Hello Brian, When it comes to dentures and their fabrication techniques you just can't go wrong when you stick to the Air Force manuals procedures, after a while you will find and develop little short cuts that work for you but when something does blow up get back to the manual. My biggest new and improved foray was getting the Eclipse denture system from Dentsply, it was going to make monomer based dentures a thing of the past........ Well I have since sold the equipment and returned to the tried and true methods..... the one thing it really did for me though was improve my setup accuracy, it didn't take but a couple of resets to clean up that act, god what a pain in the ass that was. It did have applications that it was perfect for but complete dentures was not one of them. I also use the IvoCap processing equipment. Hey Mike Thinking of that. it may have some really nice applications in your ortho work, what do you use now for the bases of some of your appliances? Last edited by Denturist : 03-12-2008 at 12:23 PM.

03-12-2008, 10:20 PM	#12 (permalink)
Denturist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 311 Rep Power: 3	Yeah.... it's a light cure material but far better than triad...... I used it only for flippers, some partials, and base plates before I finally got rid of it.... but for those apps it as great. Last edited by Denturist : 03-12-2008 at 10:23 PM.

10-05-2009, 06:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
CYNOSURER Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Memphis Posts: 563 Rep Power: 2	I have to agree with you, Ken. When someone told me there was no way the system could work I had to laugh. I can easily see how it works. They've simply got a computer doing what we have been doing in our heads all along. The landmarks are there the averages are there. It's just a matter of correlating it all in your head or a computer. I think the sad thing with this system is it falls into the "set ups for idiots" concept. Soon people who have no concept of what they are doing will be able to do it. Unfortunately, it is a vastly superior method for those who don't know what they are doing...and there are a lot of them out there. __________________ Tim Lane, CDT Cynosure Dental Laboratory The PROS in RemovablePROSthetics Memphis, TN www.CynosureDental.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-09-2008, 01:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
Denturist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 311 Rep Power: 3	I noticed they said this could all be done without a bite registration....... I personally would not accept that. A bite registration only takes a few minutes, and saves tons of headaches later.

03-09-2008, 02:37 PM	#3 (permalink)
labdude Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1971 Rep Power: 4	A bite registration for several types of appliance can save a lot of trouble in ortho as well. It's really stressful at times with some of the malocclusions in ortho.

03-10-2008, 07:31 AM	#4 (permalink)
Brian8 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Fremont, Ohio Posts: 83 Rep Power: 3	Labdude, Did you go to there website? Because on the web site it says that it is even great for ortho. I had one of there people call me he stated that they have been using it for awhile. The benefit that I saw in it was less chair time for the doctors because of the no bite registration. The person also stated that they charge more money for them because of this and the doctors all ask for it. Labdude the website is Staub Cranial Brian

03-11-2008, 10:33 AM	#5 (permalink)
Denturist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 311 Rep Power: 3	Brian...... I have been in the biz for a while and I have tried my share of new and improved crap in the market, basically I have discovered there are some areas where shortcuts can be used and may work for some for a while but when you start getting cases back ror remakes and it starts eating into your profit margin you return to tried and true procedures........ a bite registration is one of them. personally I think this staub cranial system is a result of cranial rectumitis and a marketing ploy to sell their system and equipment that will soon be gathering dust in the storage unit with the other new and improved crap. and yes I went to there website. I'm sure it is also not only good for ortho too but will soon solve world hunger

03-11-2008, 12:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
Brian8 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Fremont, Ohio Posts: 83 Rep Power: 3	Denturist, Thank you for your incite, I agree with you.. not to name any, itreo cough.. cough.. That is part of the reason why my partners and I have not purchased it. We want to wait and see where it goes.

03-11-2008, 01:12 PM	#7 (permalink)
labdude Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1971 Rep Power: 4	Yes I took a look. I remember at one AAO meeting I was attending, years ago, a group talking about how ortho labs needed to find other employment as their new goody was going to take over. Not everything is so obvious. A something that requires lab and drs. office to purchase and use same equipment doesn't usually go anywhere. The Sam system from Great Lakes is still out there and being improved on, but I don't see it as widely used as it once was. I do have a Sam 2, I use it now and again for splints. I feel safe after Williams reply, of course, saying it is most likely useable, but probably crap for most. Last new goody I tried was a Triad for acrylic work on retainers. Thing worked great. It cost a little more for product per unit but, it was largely faster in production. That made it worth it to me. Problem was, they were brittle at the thinness required for retainers. I got every on back for remake. I sold the goody through that large dental publications that advertises things and has room in the back for most everything. It went off to New York. Good place to sell from, that rag. Mike.

03-12-2008, 02:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
labdude Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1971 Rep Power: 4	Bases for my appliances??? Just like yourself, I fall back on the tried and true methods most times. I have many little goodies I have purchased to try over the years lying around in storage places in the lab. Like that 12" disc I,m trying to sell. That goody is quite useful however, if you don't already have one, they last forever.(practically) I did purchase many books over the years on ortho appliances. These were helpful. My knowledge of what I do was forced on me.(sort of) I used to do nothing but Study Models. Then one Dr. calls and insists I do his appliances. I'm thinking this will cut into my surfing time etc. He starts sending work anyway. I have no pliers, wires, acrylic, compressor, etc. I call him about it, he says "Get some". So I get stuff Sears and this used dental supply in Long Beach called Adium, if I remember correctly. Anyway minimal stuff. Now I haven't done a study model in maybe 18 years or so. I did take a couple of courses at Great Lakes as well. Thing that has been the best for me learning is to be able to have a new appliance type in my hand, and memorize it. This is one of the biggest pay offs I got from investing time and money in Ortho conventions as an exhibitor. You get the opportunity to cruise around and have a look at the new stuff. There is plenty of new stuff, lots of it actually. Most of it is crap. New ideas on old appliances type stuff. Clips on a Herbst was one, instead of screws to hold them together. Lots of people pooping clips for a while. Best change for the Herbst was to hex head screws from standard flat head. I could go on for hours. The techniques I use I have changed over the years for faster production and no quality loss. I am always open to new ideas and techniques, seems most of them are crap, but there si sometimes a tid bit in there that is good. Can't stop looking and improving. Mike.

03-12-2008, 03:33 PM	#10 (permalink)
Denturist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 311 Rep Power: 3	are you using heat or cold cure acrylics now for your ortho appliances? I was thinking that Eclipse would work well in quite a bit of your ortho applications.... I have a colleague in springfield that uses Eclipse, in fact she bought all my old Eclipse equipment. I could get a sample from her and show the stuff to you when we are over that way in April.

03-12-2008, 04:57 PM	#11 (permalink)
labdude Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1971 Rep Power: 4	Well...cold cure I guess. "Salt and Pepper method of lay up, then into a heated pressure pot. Eclipse something like the Triad stuff??? Light cure material?? Is it still strong and flexible when it is about 2 mm thick??

03-13-2008, 01:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
labdude Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1971 Rep Power: 4	Looked it up in the Zahn "telephone book sized" catalogue. It's only one color!! I use 84 colors. Mike.

03-13-2008, 02:34 PM	#14 (permalink)
Denturist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 311 Rep Power: 3	no... it comes in clear, light pink, medium pink, dark pink, and a dark shade...... granted not as much coice as you have but I was thinking of the clear prmarily.

03-13-2008, 04:45 PM	#15 (permalink)
labdude Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1971 Rep Power: 4	Well o.k. 4 or 5 colors. I remember the days when I made appliances only in clear pink and clear. Simpler times.

10-04-2009, 09:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
sensei Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	I was really interested in this as well. Turns out there is a $150 per case analysis fee to use the software. OUCH!

10-05-2009, 03:44 PM	#18 (permalink)
kcdt Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 761 Rep Power: 3	I've said this elsewhere, so I'll say it here. 1. Somehow I can't see forking over ten grand to find out what I can already do- create parameters for denture tooth arrangement- a WHOLE lot cheaper. 2. This program was created by a german tech as his phd disertation for MDT. Phd theories are a dime a dozen and getting the degree does not equal relevance of the theory. 3.Until I see some evidence based studies that demonstrate this as vastly superior to the methods that already exist, it's just another name brand shingle for labs to hang out and hope for business. The real winners as I see it so far are the ones selling it to us. The rest is open to debate. The thing I don't like about the system is that the sellers are VERY closed mouth about the rubber meets the road details unless you fork over several grand in tuition to get basic questions answered. I find that very suspicious.

10-06-2009, 06:00 PM	#20 (permalink)
D-Labtek Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	Its funny because I was just at the Alberta (Canada) Denturist Assoc. meeting and actually met Karl Staub. He was putting on a demonstration for the Denturists and I found it to be intriguing at the least. I work for a large dental lab in the denture dept and could see how the technique could save time and money. The biggest thing is using the land marks to determine tooth position in the maxilla and anterior tooth position in the mandible. Bite blocks are placed in the lower posterior areas so a check bite can be taken at the try in. A Denturist who I used to work for uses this technique on all his patients. Thanks Keith