Candulor Composive

[JohnWilson]

Who has used this stuff? Tips?

I have a goofy case and this may solve some issues just looking for feedback on the product.

[araucaria]

Ah yes, I see the problem.....I'm sure it'll be perfect for the job.



Very small quantity though - 2ml ? But I'm told it's excellent.

.

[dmonwaxa]

I may have to get some of that. John do you use the Candulor teeth? If so what
are your thoughts.

[JohnWilson]

First off your pretty funny Araucaria.

Second, yes we switch between Ivocar and Candolar depending on the patient for our Fixed Hybrids,

The case I mentioned I have several teeth that pose a potential problem with good bonding to the PMMA. Dr is very specific on her wishes on the guidance as this is against a natural arch of teeth and the cuspid rise on this appliance will put a tremendous amount of stress on canines. Compounding the fact that we had to angel correct with Multi unit abutments right were the canines are makes setting the denture tooth very difficult. The ridge-lap on the NFC's are substantial and I know I am all the way through the PMMA and need a way to bond back to the composite. This stuff is supposed to be the solution but I am hesitant.

Just looking for real world assessment from my fellow techs.

[araucaria]

An all PMMA type tooth would be just fine and offers a little more resilience. I personally like to combine bonding chemically with a strong physical connection wherever possible. I also see many cases like the one you mention with opposing natural dentition and managing excursions with the canines and premolars can be a nightmare with the stresses applied. Posterior guidance can alleviate some of the stress. If all this is predictable at the outset then the patient can be informed of the risks and take up the option of a spare denture. Also it's better to under-promise and over-deliver than the other way round.
PS gotta have a sense of humour in this job John, it makes the weary days seem so much more pleasant. We're not blessed with too much time on this planet so we gotta make the most pleasure from the time we have. I like to be happy as much as possible, it doesn't cost anything to smile

[JohnWilson]

Totally agree with "The give" factor that all PMMA teeth have over hybrid teeth. The problem is on the case, and with this client, is that a PMMA tooth is going to wear out super fast. The truth is the client shifted gear mid stream on this and thats one of the reason we are behind the eight ball trying to over come this problem.

I ordered the material it will be in tomorrow, I am going to do an unofficial slightly scientific test to see how good the chemical bond is with this product.

As for your "life is too damn short" analogy I couldn't agree more.

Smile, its easy!

[araucaria]

I am going to do an unofficial slightly scientific test to see how good the chemical bond is with this product.

Mark's right - we're all really crazy scientists
I love finding the "real" properties and limits for some of the stuff we use. We're real innovators in this profession. Why don't manufacturers push the limits and try to find out what's possible with some of their stuff ?
I'd also love to know of the best non-dental use of a lab product and what's been acheived out there in the real world.

[AJEL]

For the patient who like to chew on the ruggae I've done a few Duracetal like a steels facing frames and even though there is no bond chemically the mechanical is working. I have them chewing on the acetal with like a finish line distal to the lower anterior tooth contact, & put in web work of Duracetal for the PMMA to connect.This way I have .2mm strong enough against the lower tooth in tooth shaded steels frame, with the post & cross if the tooth is broken I can cure in a new one & as it is only usually Ant 8 the rest can be regualar PMMA pink, with bi & molar in the pink.

[lcmlabforum]

I am confused AJEL - Duracetal is injected material and not actual steel. You have to wax and inject a platform separately before incoporating that insider PMMA when you pack? I guess I am not seeing it - what post and cross?
LCM

[AJEL]

We're real innovators in this profession. Why don't manufacturers push the limits and try to find out what's possible with some of their stuff ?
I'd also love to know of the best non-dental use of a lab product and what's been acheived out there in the real world.
sometimes I make parts of my old swisident & steeles articulators & if U like tech sheets check out just the task stuff. TASK® Series Liquid Plastics Product Information | Smooth-On I just ordered some Task 3 as the task 7 when I cast it almost didn't work. This project is to create a base on the articulator with magnets, so i only have to articulate once to have casts that I don't need stickywax and can process with. I made the molds in 1999 and the first set of bases are just now starting to break down.

[AJEL]

I am confused AJEL - Duracetal is injected material and not actual steel. You have to wax and inject a platform separately before incoporating that insider PMMA when you pack? I guess I am not seeing it - what post and cross?
LCM

Just wax up the teeth on an expansion stone and make like an all cast (steel facing frame) leaving web lingual to the biting surface and some loops anterior if U want pink in the anterior labial vault. then inject having the post & diatorics in the anterior 8. If a tooth breaks in the future U still have the post & cross that self cure can grab onto. If U need to reline it the rest of the case is in PMMA but the patient wont chew thru the Druacetal & I haven't seen someone break it.
In the steeles facing there is a slot up the middle of the flat back, if U use a regular tooth U put a post up the middle & diatoric that go thru the sides (a cross), giving U something to bond a repair in the future. Removables need repair so plan for it.

[JohnWilson]

Mark's right - we're all really crazy scientists
I love finding the "real" properties and limits for some of the stuff we use. We're real innovators in this profession. Why don't manufacturers push the limits and try to find out what's possible with some of their stuff ?
I'd also love to know of the best non-dental use of a lab product and what's been acheived out there in the real world.

Well my scientific test will be to grind a NFC tooth down till there is no PMMA and then use the Composive and then pack a wedge of acrylic to it.

After I devest it I will take some plaster sheers and at the interface of the acrylic and the tooth see what breaks. If it shears clean I wont be happy. If the tooth fractures and has acrylic stuck to it I will be.

SO SCIENTIFIC IT HURTS!

[AJEL]

Well my scientific test will be to grind a NFC tooth down till there is no PMMA and then use the Composive and then pack a wedge of acrylic to it.

After I devest it I will take some plaster sheers and at the interface of the acrylic and the tooth see what breaks. If it shears clean I wont be happy. If the tooth fractures and has acrylic stuck to it I will be.

SO SCIENTIFIC IT HURTS!

Process it with a eye hook in it and a separate one on the other end of the tooth.
suspend it and apply weight until it separates then U will have scientific value for the separation point, although for a elongation tear U should also take some measurements. I would check ASTM D-638, & ASTM D-7078 to document your failure analyses test. Have fun although the snips might be considered ASTM 732 with a punch tool. Good luck I looked up the ASTM 695 for PMMA it is around 10,000 -18,000 psi.

[Mark Jackson]

Mark's right - we're all really crazy scientists
I love finding the "real" properties and limits for some of the stuff we use. We're real innovators in this profession. Why don't manufacturers push the limits and try to find out what's possible with some of their stuff ?
I'd also love to know of the best non-dental use of a lab product and what's been acheived out there in the real world.

Just do it with informed consent. As long as everybody is aware of the facts, allowed to contemplate the possible complications and you clearly have a contarct that outlines who is finanically responsible for any damage, replacement costs or injury to the patient, it's all good.

Just don't experiement on innocent people.

[lcmlabforum]

Thanks AJEL - I understand the 'design' now. I just waxed a strut for my patient 2 weeks ago and will try to post photo next time - but instead of a post for the porcelain flatback teeth, it simply extended inside the tooth so that we can help to take some of the stress of oppsing teeth on very tight space. Mark - I don't think it is experimentation on innocent people when we tell them up front the limitations and the fact that the alternative would be a full-mouth reconstruction to open up the vertical and they cannot do it for medical or what ever reasons. At least a removable prosthesis is less irreversible than cutting some 20 teeth for full coverage restorations. I think in real clinical practice, and the key word here is 'practice' because there are no double blind study on the myriad conditions that present itself clinically, the provider and lab partners are often tasked to come up with solutions that can be unique or modified from bread and butter dentistry. I would not fault AJEL from being creative to try to solve a clinically challenging problem - because he has taken the time and forethought to consider pros and cons knowing his material and their limitations. I am sure you have been put in that position before - and as long as we use proven, tested material to apply to clinical situations, that should be totally legit. It is always a fine line between doing the right thing and taking a chance. I would rather have people like you good folks make that decision than someone totally out to make a bulk and taking short cuts.
Just my 2 cents worth.
LCM

[AJEL]

The duracetal is already approved as a partial frame material. No experimental, and always inform and get approval. I have made lower over partial (sort of a snap on with distal extension saddles) to process relineable acrylic & open the bite with acetal anteriors to the CEJ. It is amazing how Bulimia nervosa can dissolve the teeth to 2mm nubs. I wish I knew how to size & post pictures.